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SFREI #33: What Makes Great Real Estate Agents with Kevin Kauffman

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In this episode, host Jeff from The Thoughtful Real Estate Entrepreneur interviews rock-star real estate agent and industry community leader Kevin Kauffman. In this wide-ranging discussion, Jeff and Kevin discuss what makes a great real estate agents, how agents and investors can better work together, and how to build community within the real estate industry.

Episode Transcript

This is Jeff from the Thoughtful Real Estate Entrepreneur. Welcome to episode number 33 of Sleaze Free Real Estate Investing. This is a show for those of us who’ve never felt at home in the “We Buy Houses” crowd. In this show, we take a stand against what we call the lowbrow approach the mainstream guru seminar distressed seller approach that ends up giving real estate investors a slimy reputation. And instead, we’ve discussed the strategies, the tactics and the philosophies that we call the thoughtful way.

Now this is an enlightened approach to real estate entrepreneurship that focuses on constantly sharpening the sophisticated real estate entrepreneurs three most critical capabilities, seller relations, skills, deal architecture, skills and opportunity vision. When all three of these capabilities are successfully in motion, you can make an excellent living today and build long term wealth, while creating value for everybody that you touch along the way. There are show notes for today’s episode at WWW dot thoughtful r e.com. Slash e three three. Please do yourself and do us a HUGE favor by hitting your subscribe button right now in the podcast app, we would so appreciate that.

Now, I’m excited to tell you what we’ve got in store for you in today’s episode. The world of real estate is obviously a huge world and we as thoughtful real estate entrepreneurs are admittedly kind of off over in our own little corner doing things in our own unique way. But the vast majority of real estate activity in our country is of course conducted through real estate agents. But as real estate entrepreneurs, we don’t always have the ability to relate to real estate agents very well. And that’s why today I’m so excited to share with you an interview I conducted with Kevin Kaufman. Now in the world of real estate agents Kevin is known as a thought leader. He is also a practicing broker and brokerage owner himself. He’s a podcaster. He holds large events for real estate agents and is a wealth of knowledge both to real estate agents and about real estate agents. And the more that we can understand our agent counterparts, the better and more effective we can often be in our own business, whether that’s on the buy side, or on the sell side or in any other way.

In this interview, Kevin and I discuss a really wide range of things from what makes a great agent to how many agents actually get involved with investing and why that might not be more some of the most current things such as eye buyers that are affecting the real estate agent business today, and so much more even including broad conceptual topics like abundance mentality and what it means to be an entrepreneur versus an investor. I hope you enjoy this interview. We’re gonna cue up the theme music and we’re gonna dive right in.

Announcer
Successful real estate investing isn’t all about we buy houses and motivated sellers. That’s the lowbrow approach and it gets real estate investing a slimy reputation. Gross. There is a better way, a more genuine, human approach. We are thoughtful real estate entrepreneurs. And this is Sleaze Free Real Estate Investing.

Jeff Stephens
Okay, Kevin, thank you so much for joining me today.

Kevin Kauffman
Thanks a lot for having me on. I really appreciate it, Jeff.

Jeff Stephens
Yeah, absolutely. I was excited that our schedules aligned and why don’t you just start by telling us Who is this Kevin guy?

Kevin Kauffman
Oh, man, that is a loaded question. I gotta tell you. I’ll go I’ll go easy. So my name is Kevin Kauffman. I run a real estate business, kind of a traditional real estate brokerage business, if you will. My business partner, Fred Weaver. We are based in Tempe, Arizona is our home base. I say home base, because we have, I guess, slightly different business where we sell real estate in multiple markets. But we’ve got a company called group 4610 Real Estate network, which is the name of our real estate team. We’ve been in business now for gosh more than a decade, I guess 12 plus years as of February 2020. And so we’ve kind of figured out this partnership thing and, you know, we help people buy and sell real estate, we run a team that is predominantly your average homebuyer, home seller, the occasional investor. And but we, we try to take things from a different approach. And so we’ve been doing this, like I said, for a while, on top of running the real estate team.

We also together run a real estate, Facebook group for real estate agents, I should say a Facebook group for real estate agents called next level agents, which is just kind of a free online mastermind, if you will. We’ve always sort of been out in front of the real estate industry from a teaching and giving back perspective. So when we got started back in 08, when him and I started working together, we were doing short sales, and we were teaching short sales simultaneously. It just kind of given back to our community. So that Facebook group and then our podcast is sort of how we do that now. And I guess so that’s a little bit about me a little bit of a ramble there. Sorry about that.

Jeff Stephens
No, no, no, that’s, that’s good. That’s good. I feel like before we get in too far, like, I need to point out what feels to me kind of like the the, the elephant in the virtual room for your sake, as well as our listeners sake, which is that I actually teach people to acquire real estate off market, almost always, without agents. So I want to just throw that out there and just sort of set that context. But I think there’s a ton of intersection between what you do though, and what we do and I have this theory that I want to get to in a minute about how just just possibly, great real estate agents might also have a lot of the same traits as great off market real estate investors, but Well, we’ll test that theory in a few minutes.

Kevin Kauffman
Yeah, you know, that’s, you know, that’s that’s funny. You mentioned that I think most people I say most people, most real estate agents would probably not love that. And at the same time, I actually I totally appreciate it. I got into real estate. This is funny. So I was the reason I became a realtor is because I wanted to be an investor. And I had a teacher, I was going back to school. And I had long story short, I met I met this man who was a was a professor, kind of a part time professor, when I found out full time real estate investor, part time investor kind of giving back to the community, and he became my first real mentor. And so one of the things I realized, luckily, that he taught me right away was that I was gonna have to still work for a few years before I could actually, quote unquote, just be a professional investor. And luckily, he taught me that lesson right away. It so one of the things I thought to do was, I was like, Well, if I just have to, if I forget to keep working for a few few years, and I want to be in real estate, why don’t I just work as a realtor? I’ll just get a real estate license.

I mean, that literally was the thought process I had was like, I’m going to get into real estate to basically feed my real estate habit. And then you know, things happen and we can go into that later where my my viewpoints or my I shouldn’t say viewpoints, just kind of my trajectory in my business turned and started going a different direction than I thought it would. But I mean, I approached getting into real estate as a real estate industry to begin with. So I don’t really have a problem with that. I love the creative, off market, real estate, sort of non traditional things that go into probably what you do and, and teach a lot of

Jeff Stephens
Yeah, yeah. It’s funny that you know, real estate investing is sort of a broad, kind of a broad term and unfortunately, it’s not a term that always has the greatest connotations. You know, before we got started, I was saying, okay, here’s what we are. picture that we buy houses, signs up on the phone pole and then go 180 degrees in your mind from whatever that means to you. That’s where we are and but unfortunately, the the term real estate investing as a whole kind of encompasses all of that, in a lot of ways, I feel like we’re kind of on a mission, like reclaim a positive reputation for what real estate investing can be in real estate investors can be.

Kevin Kauffman
Yeah, you know, it’s funny. I think there are some people in your world and my world for that matter, let’s just call it the real estate world. They probably do things that aren’t, that aren’t cool that you don’t want to be associated with and neither do I. And I think there’s also a lot that’s misunderstood by people out there. So you know, as an example, like, just, you know, you called it the elephant in the virtual room. I think there’s a lot of real estate agents that would probably misunderstand why you do that and kind of think, take that as a shot and there’s others who’d go, yeah, I kind of get what you say that. I think it’s all about viewpoint. And at the end of the day, I think that when we’re helping people kind of get what they want, help them with their goals when it comes to real estate. That tends to be how we can help accomplish, you know, accomplish our own goals by helping other people. So I think at the end of the day, it’s all you know, it’s all the same.

Jeff Stephens
Yeah, yeah. So with next level agents is one of the things I definitely wanted to hear more about, you know, after I after I met you, that was probably the first thing then I saw that you were involved with after meeting you. And that’s a pretty big group. I mean, by my standards, that’s a it’s a large group, and it seems like it’s really vibrant and thriving. How What do you think is what makes that group a successful community?

Kevin Kauffman
Gosh, Jeff, I wish I knew the answer to that. Here’s what here’s what I’ll tell you. Here’s because all I know is what I think is true about that. We started that group because and I say we I mean myself, my business partner, Fred, and we’ve got another partner in that group actually from from Portland, his name is Cody Gibson. The three of us started that group because we wanted to have a conversation about real estate on Facebook in a Facebook group mean, the three of us were always in masterminds together we’d always been in for quite some time. In fact, the first, I guess, 11 years of my career, I was at Keller Williams Realty. And Cody is is that kind of williams realty as well. And we were in the top 100 producers in the in, you know, in the country, in a mastermind together for years. And so him and I were used to some really high level conversations. And we had those quite a bit offline ourselves a lot of times via text a lot of times in person.

And what we didn’t find online, though, in the Facebook groups were conversations like that, not that they weren’t Facebook groups for real estate agents. They just weren’t the conversations that him and I wanted to be involved in. And so I’m not kidding. I literally just started the group one day on a Saturday morning and I text Fred I text Cody because that’s the Three of us, I have had conversations with the two of them individually for, I don’t know, six months a year about it, maybe it’s too late to start a new real, you know, a new Facebook group. But gosh, it would be nice to do it and have a better conversation than what’s going on in most of these other groups right now. And so I just started a group one day texted him both said, Hey, we now have a group. Here’s the name of it. I just made you guys admins. And you know, we probably had 1000 people that day. And then, you know, over the last couple years, it’s grown to 25 26,000 agents, not the biggest Real Estate Group out there by any means. But it’s you know, it’s decent size. I think what, what kind of gives it that vibrance though, even though it’s not the most active group, is the fact that there were some really high level thinkers in there. There’s some people that run some really big businesses that actually contribute and it’s not just the mouthpieces that are online, that are you know, that are in the industry, not just the people who are out selling something that are you know, But actually people who are their core business is their core business of selling real estate. And I think that goes a long ways. And we’ve just been able to create a kind of a tight knit community out of it over the last couple years that we’ve since we started it.

Jeff Stephens
Yeah, that’s really cool. And it looks like even it’s transitioned. It’s kind of grown and transcended just the group too, right. I mean, I know that obviously, the current Coronavirus situation is putting the brakes on any in person gathering, but I know that you guys at least have been, you know, organizing things like that as well.

Kevin Kauffman
Yeah. So you know, we weren’t going to be we should be about two weeks shy of our, you know, of our event, our annual event. So we put together an event. The first year we had the room and truthfully The idea was this was Hey, do you think we can actually get people to pay to come to a one day event? We won’t charge a lot or just try to add value. The goal was to literally, we had two stated goals Jeff: Number one was like, under no circumstance lose any money by doing this. And number two, I bet it would probably bring the community closer together. like you’d probably make it stronger. And so we did that. And we put together a one day event that we held it in Las Vegas. And it was cool. We, you know, we had a great event, we probably had about 220 or so people show up when they’re 50 or 60. people watched it online, on a live stream. And a lot of feedback that we got was, Hey, this is cool. But if I’m going to travel, I’d rather travel and go to a two day or three day event, not a one day event. So maybe consider doing that next year. So we did. And so last year in 2019, we did it again. put just a hair over 400 people in the room in person, and just about the same number of live streams. And putting on a two day event for a couple hundred people for even four or 500 people is a massive undertaking, much less doing it in another city. So we were moving it to Scottsdale and we were we were expecting north of 600 attendees this year, and we will not be holding that event in person in 2020. Now, given the circumstances here in the early part of 2020. Yeah.

Jeff Stephens
Well, I’m sure that the community will be really craving, you know, more opportunities to connect in person again, then when when everything kind of cools off a little bit.

Kevin Kauffman
Yeah. And, you know, I’d be remiss if I go backwards for a second, I think, part of the reason why that has gone so well is number one, all of the people I mean, we’ve got people that like they speak for a living and some of them are very highly paid to do so not or I shouldn’t say speak for a living. Some of them do. And some of them are practitioners, but also speak and are highly paid to speak. Number one is all of the speakers we’ve had at the events. No one has ever charged us a penny. They’re mostly friends like they’re almost all you know. I’ve effectively handpicked every single speaker for the what would have been three years in a row now, based on what’s the value that they can give to the community, and the other thing was just no selling from stage? Absolutely none of that. Because too many events are always about selling and not about the content, and not about giving back to the attendees. And I think I think that’s the kind of the heart of it that people really understood was, hey, like, if I go and listen to the speaker, I’m going to get some really great content, not just a pitch to buy their product. And so I think that’s part of what has built our, you know, kept our community kind of tighter knit, if you will, and kept the people those core people coming back.

Jeff Stephens
Yeah, yeah. That makes a lot of sense. So when I think back to what you said a few minutes ago about how you really first got started in your first initial mentor and your your goal to do some investing then so what how did that play out? Did you end up kind of getting into investing while you got involved with the brokerage world too. And what what types of things if anything, have you ended up doing in the investing side?

Kevin Kauffman
Gosh, so you know, it’s funny, I’ve done very little investing. I’ve done some you know, about that time, I had bought a condo, I guess I had two condos at that time. When I first got into real estate, I thought I was going to go heavy, heavy investing. But what I found myself in truthfully was, I mean, I had no money, I like I quit my job, and had a decent amount of debt and was trying to start a real estate business. And I didn’t know what it was like to be in real estate. But, and the market was crashing. I mean, it was May of 07, I got my license. And I mean, my so my third transaction ever was a short sale. And so what I found, though, was early in 2008. When Fred and I teamed up sort of working together, we quickly started growing a business out of selling real estate. And that was

When I first we, we, you know, we were lucky in the fact that we had a lot of people willing to give us advice, and mentor us because we were doing a lot of giving back as well to the community by helping people understand something they didn’t really understand and short sales. And what I realized is we could actually form a business out of selling real estate as real estate agents, I just thought it was, you know, you kind of go from one deal to the next like most real estate agents do, but what I learned quickly is that you could actually have a whole business out of selling real estate. And so I think what it is is just had this business it was coming together was right in front of me and we just kept building on it and building on it. And eventually I looked up and I realized like that was my business and there was no need for me to go try to create a real estate investing business at the time.

Jeff Stephens
Yeah, yeah. Well, you know, to your point from a few minutes ago, and the advice that you got, you know, from from your initial mentor there, it is difficult to just sort of start are cold and go straight into just real estate investing and, and just do that without some other important elements of a person’s business model. And you know, and everybody kind of goes different directions with that some people might be property managers to earn earned income, and then do investing as a, as a part of that. They might have a contractor’s license, they might have a real estate license, they might, you know, do a bunch of different things. I have some friends who started as appraisers and you know, I’ve got a coach and he sort of uses this expression of having a wide stance and when you have a wider stance, obviously you’re more stable, and having some other element of what you do, whether it’s have a real estate license or whatever, provides a great deal of width to your stance and so it really does enable I think people to, to get started with investing a lot better when it’s not the only thing that there was there’s more diversification in their business model, so to speak.

Kevin Kauffman
Absolutely. You know, what’s funny is now is like, Here I am, gosh, almost 13 years into my career. And now I’m starting to get a little more focused on investing. You before this started, we had a actually had a couple properties under contract that ended up not closing on in another city that we were going to do. But, you know, I think one of the things I’ve learned is, as I’ve built my business over the years, kind of come full circle and I’ve built a I’ve been really fortunate, fortunate enough to build a real estate business that is a business that doesn’t require me to show up every day, and make the phone calls and do the things and, you know, press all the buttons for us to have closings, right in so that allows me to focus on a few other things. And while we’ve got some other aspects to our business, one of those things that we’ve flat out, you know, dedicated ourselves to adding is more investment into into our business. And so, I guess I say that to bring that back home. I’ve done some investing now. A lot, not nearly as much as I thought I would. And I’m hoping to do a lot more Now, going forward as well.

Jeff Stephens
Yeah, that’s cool. So if you if you were to go into the next level agents group and do a survey, what percentage of those folks do you feel like as agents have also gotten involved with investing to some degree?

Kevin Kauffman
I’ll bet it’s less than 20%. You know, if I, if I go into the next, this is not to say that inexorable agents, that’s, you know, we’re only the best agents in the but there are, there’s a higher percentage of people that run businesses in there as opposed to just being real estate agents. Yeah. And so you know, so some of them have the time or the capital to do so. So there’s probably a higher percentage in that group than, say, just real estate agents overall. But if you took a look at the, you know, there’s about 2 million licensed real estate salespeople or real estate agents and brokers in the United States, about 1.1 million realtors, if you will. I bet you less than 10% of them maybe maybe even less than that 5% or less are actually quote unquote investors meaning they’ve got at least one one investment property would be my guess. But I don’t. That’s a total guess and shot in the dark by the way. I want to make sure I don’t think I’m I’m relaying statistics that are actually true. That’s in my head.

Jeff Stephens
Yeah. Well, that’s okay. And that. I mean, that is an interesting insight, I think, in and of itself. So I guess my follow up question there would be if for considering all these real estate agents have a front row seat to I don’t know, well, just obviously real estate but they probably have a front row seat to seeing people using real estate to build businesses and to make money and long term money or short term money whether it’s you know, rental houses or flips or commercial properties. All those things, they presumably have kind of a front row seat to that, why do you think more of them don’t get as involved as as I might expect them to?

Kevin Kauffman
So I think there’s a couple reasons like, you know, I can tell you why I didn’t get involved. And then I’ll tell you why I think more of the general population population of realtors don’t get involved or having gotten involved, I should say. I know for me for quite a while one of the things I was focused on was really building our real estate business. I mentioned earlier briefly, in the intro, that we happen to sell real estate in different cities, besides just the Phoenix area, and I got really focused in on the business and narrowly focused and that was and I accept responsibility for it. And I will say kind of my primary key mentor at the time, just kept telling me just reinvest everything into this business. Keep focused on it, you know, kind of blinders on to everything else. And so for me, that’s what it was like. I mean, it was a conscious decision not to do it. I had countless conversations with friends who are who are more active on the investing side of the world than I am it were, you know, leave a lunch or a coffee or, or a zoom, or a phone meeting or something, oh, gosh, you know, so and so’s killing it? Why am I not doing this? And I would just have to say, you know, I’m folk to kind of remind myself and focus on this focus on building this operation. So I know for me that that was the thing that kept me out of it for a long time, or at least that’s the story I’ve told myself. And then I think a lot of other folks in our industry, a lot of people just like, think it’s no different even though most people that get a real estate license are very entrepreneurial at heart. A lot of them are just, I’m not gonna have a job. There’s no you’re not going to tell me what to do type of people who get in the business. I think what happens is they get in And it’s a, it’s still a rat race. It’s just a different rat race, you know, or different wheel that they’re on. But they’re still on a wheel and they’re spinning it trying to make it work. And so I think that’s probably one of the reasons why a great percentage of people don’t is they just, it’s not, you know, it’s hard. It’s just hard to do something different. I think it’s hard for people to make decisions about their future, as opposed to making a decision about you know, I shouldn’t say future. It’s hard to make a decision about 10 years from now when you’re when most of your decisions are about 30 days from now.

Jeff Stephens
Yeah. That makes sense. I can definitely see how, yeah, it’s a different mentality. I guess it gets fostered in those those two different roles. One of the things I was gonna I was gonna ask you about, I make this distinction between real estate investors and entrepreneurs in real estate and I’d love to hear your comment on that. But it occurred to me that maybe the same thing could be argued about real estate agents. Do you think there’s a difference between a real estate agent and an entrepreneur who happens to operate in real estate?

Kevin Kauffman
Yes, absolutely. So, if you look at me, I’m probably more of an entrepreneur definitely run a business, if you will. And I could, I won’t name names, but like, I mean, I’m present so many of them. I know so many people that are real estate agents, like they help you buy and sell real estate. As an example, Jeff, let’s say you, you came to Phoenix said, Hey, man, I want to buy a new primary residence. I’m moving to Phoenix. Can you help me out? I’m gonna say yes, we can help you out. But I’m not gonna it’s not like I’m going to go drive you around and show you the houses and look on the MLS for you, you’re going to work with one of the top agents that works for me on my team. And you’re then going to work with, you know, our preferred lender, or at least you’re gonna have the opportunity to be introduced to some really great people on the lending side, you’re going to end up working with the people who run our operation and transaction side of the business for once you’re under contract and all the things that have to happen there. And so I say that so like, that’s very much business as opposed to most real estate agents, even most of the successful ones I know, for the most part, like they they’re doing everything from beginning to end, like they’re going to show you the houses, they’re going to find them on MLS. They’re going to handle inspections and negotiations and all of the other paperwork that goes in transaction from once you go under contract at the time you close. And I think that’s a there’s a big difference in the two mindsets and one of the things I try to I try to tell my friends and or, you know, other agents as well, that can be for advice, because one of the things in real estate for whatever reason is like comparing numbers, right? And it’s always the top line numbers. And, of course, I’m going to sell a lot more houses than the solo agent. I’ve got a team of people that are going to do it for me, you know, that are doing different parts of the job for me, like I’m not having to do everything. And so like I tell try to tell people, you know, try not to compare because we’re literally playing a different game. I know we both have a real estate license. I know that we both help people buy and sell real estate. But we don’t do the same thing. So don’t compare yourself to people that are doing something totally different than you. Because it’s a different business. Totally different game.

Jeff Stephens
Yeah, I think that is such…okay, that that right, there is such a good point for I believe, for entrepreneurs in general. And it’s it’s so easy for us to compare ourselves to others. And like you mentioned, I mean, there’s certain industries and stuff where there’s ostensibly metrics that are apples to apples, even though they’re not necessarily exactly like that. But yeah, I think a lot about that exact thing when I find myself kind of getting caught up with somebody else, like we are. I guess brokerage owners versus agents are playing two different games. But then each person is sort of, hey, you’re running your own race. You know, you’re, you’re playing your own game. And it’s so easy to get caught up like comparing yourself to other people, but sort of stay in what your own focus is and not to get distracted by, you know, what you think other people might be doing or accomplishing?

Kevin Kauffman
Yeah, it’s like, you know, I guess it goes back to the same. I wish I knew who said it originally, but don’t compare your insides to other people’s outsides. Like, I think it’s a very natural thing for us to do especially if you’re whether you’re an entrepreneur or not, you’re probably competitive on some level if you’re in business or there’s a high likelihood of it right and so it’s easy to go Oh, he sold so many sell, sell and sell houses or you know, she bought so many houses this month. I think that’s a really easy natural comparison and on some levels, it’s even healthy right? To help you expand your your thought process of what’s possible. And at the same time, like that comparison right there can end up I see it end up just absolutely crushing some people in my industry, you know, that I think it’s unfortunate but it happens every day.

Jeff Stephens
Yeah, yeah. So back to that, this kind of question of the difference between, you know, a and b, one of the things I think about a lot and I’m just curious if this this might not be something you think about very often, but it’s if you haven’t if this resonates with you at all, but the difference between being a real estate investor and an entrepreneur in real estate how does that hit you when you hear that?

Kevin Kauffman
When I hear investor, I think I put some money out, or something of value out, in return in hopes of a return getting back more in the future. That’s what I think of as an investor whether we’re talking about real estate or not. I’m not saying that’s the you know, should be the legal definition by any means. That’s what comes to me. When I hear entrepreneur I hear and think either, hey, I’ve got an idea of a way to do something on a bigger level. And or I’ve just got, I’ve got something that I believe I can turn into a business? That’s what I think of when I hear entrepreneur. And so maybe in a lot of times as entrepreneur, those things may not be what’s traditional. They’re non traditional, right? Like, what I didn’t say to you yet is the one of the reasons. The other reason to why I’m so comfortable with the, you know, with kind of teaching people to buy and sell real estate without a real estate agent is, you know, one of the people I learned from was Carlton Sheets kind of, you know, the no money down late night infomercial stuff, like, yeah, that was where I learned like, that’s actually, I would credit him with a lot of my success in being able to complete short sales because it was always about finding a solution. As opposed to doing things a certain way that fit in a box.

We used to have the same for, we call it the outback. Meaning, you know, when I used to in fact, when I was teaching short sales, in the early days, I would draw on a board, this thing called the outback and I draw this line kind of show the whole industry and show how 97% of the real estate industry is done in this box. And, you know, it’s it’s not a bad box, but it’s just the box and it’s the way things are done. And it’s a trillion dollar industry and it is what it is. But there’s this other 3% that we would call the outback. That was all of the other transactions or homes changing hands that were done from a place of creativity and solutions first, not necessarily fitting into a box and checking a guideline. Right. And so I kind of always came from that mindset of solutions first. You know, thinking when it when it comes to an individual deal.

Jeff Stephens
Yeah. I okay, I absolutely love that. As a matter of fact, as I was kind of making some notes to prepare for our conversation, I was thinking about that exact same thing with the box and then the stuff that falls outside the box and I think that the the real estate market, sort of as a, as a system is amazingly well tuned and lubricated to deliver exactly what everybody needs in about 98% of the cases. The other 2% of the cases, though, it’s not the right mechanism for doing those things. And so what what I’m getting at is, as I think about while I really do actually believe that if you’re probably if you’re a good real estate agent, you’re probably well suited to be a great real estate, like an off market real estate investor to because you’re used to talking directly to people and and kind of negotiating with them and understanding what their situation is, and, and whatnot. The thing that concerns me though, like the one caveat I have is if if 98% of your time is spent in in the box, it’s very, I just have to assume it’s got to be super difficult to just magically take that hat off, at one point, and then suddenly put on this creative Pat, and then just see the world from a different perspective. Like, I just think anybody doing anything 98% of the time in a certain way, it’s not easy to just turn that off and start thinking in a different way. Does that make sense?

Kevin Kauffman
Yeah, you know, it really does. And I think that is, and I think you’ve got a good point there. It is hard to do. And it’s hard to do both. I think that if you don’t, I would…well, let me put it this way, what I think you can do is I think you can put yourself in positions to make that easier, or to make that more likely to happen. Whether that is I don’t know, joining an investor group or having a mastermind group with friends with either friends or actual an actual you know, organize mastermind group like the way you and I had officially, you know, originally meant to put you into that mindset more often. Right? And it’s gonna, you’re gonna have to come off that 97% centering the person, like it’s eventually gonna have to skew the other way, at least a little bit. If you’re gonna make any sort of progress, I think the other way you do it, and this is the way I was originally taught, and it’s not necessarily not saying this is the way for everyone to do it. One of the ways I was taught, it’s like, Hey, you know, build your core business big. And part of building a real estate businesses, you also build a bigger network, right? And instead of doing it through your work hours, and you’re all your mindset is find someone to partner with, right and help someone else get started where potentially you can be the financial side of that and part of the, part of the mindset, if you will, but it’s that becomes their 98% or in my world, I would always call it, you know, their 80% you know, based on the 80/20 rule. And so, find someone else who can make the you know, this thing that would be outside of your 20 percent, find someone else who can make it their, you know, their thing, their main thing, if you will, and partner with them and maybe grow business with them that way. That was kind of one of the ways I was taught to think about this as well is to not to try to do it all on your own because it is hard to get out of your kind of your, your main mindset, especially if it is, you know, produces a pretty good income and, you know, helps you helps you run a good business. Not all of us can be like Elon Musk and have a couple different multi billion dollar businesses we’re the CEO of you know what I mean?

Jeff Stephens
Yeah, that is for sure. So I wanted to pivot a little bit. I wonder if this might even bring us back to some of the same things on my mind. But I’ve seen something through one of your Facebook pages or websites but called the eye buyer advantage. Can you tell us a little bit about what that is?

Kevin Kauffman
Yeah, so the iBuyer Advantage, it’s a little it’s just a little ebook. I wrote. Here’s the deal. I mentioned earlier to when you asked me about kind of the elephant in the room and I tend to see things a little bit different than most real estate agents. Because I just don’t feel threatened. I’m always okay with things changing and needing to adapt. And so, one of the things that really scares a lot of real estate agents is the change in technology from companies like Zillow, open door offer pad Redfin, of course, right now, they’ve all stopped buying and so real estate agents as a whole, if you will want to kind of celebrate a win, if you will, because they think this is a win somehow. But what I was trying to do with that book is to convey to them, there’s another way to view what’s happening in our industry. There’s another way to view disruption. And it doesn’t have to just be that I’m getting disrupted in something. Somebody is taking something from me, but rather learn to use these companies and the these changes are ultimately these changes in consumer behavior as a way to help grow your business and to help fortify your business. And so that’s all that, you know, I saw. So that ebook is really just my thought process around around using what is changing in our world today, inside of our inside of our I’ll call it our real estate agent world. And what is trying to disrupt us and how to take that and use that to our advantage rather than being disrupted.

Jeff Stephens
Yeah. So what what would you say then is sort of the the gist of how you do that in this case, or, like the point of view that you have with that is like, how are you saying that that could be I because I have a guess of what the answer is. And I think it’s, I think it’s very much probably the same way that I’m thinking about it from an investment perspective, but I just want to check so how are you feeling like that can be the right advantage for real estate agents.

Kevin Kauffman
So there’s a there’s a couple of layers to that. Right. So number one is find out what it is that what is it that they really want? And then what is it that they don’t want? And how can you help each other with those two things, right? So as an example, the TSI buyers are not they don’t buy everything, like they have little, they have very limited buy boxes of what they’re willing to buy, what they’re willing to risk on, and what they’re not find out what’s important to them. You know, there’s different ways to work with these companies. Some of them you know, you can use them to your advantage by as an example, if you have a listing coming up or a client who is in the buy box, right, their home fits the buy box, but you know, and they are pressed for time, or there’s a way to sell to the one of these ibuyers you can still get paid, probably not as much as you normally would. However, you won’t have the cost that you normally would either and turn them into their next purchase a little bit faster. or people who need to sell faster because of relocation. Or perhaps it’s just, you know, in my, in my mind, this is gonna sound crazy, although I don’t think it’s crazy, is sometimes it’s literally just the best thing for them. Because they can have their money, it’s virtually the same thing that we can get them on the MLS, and it’s tomorrow or in 10 days or 15 days, whatever it is they say that they want, right.

So I think it’s really nothing more than a matter of helping people helping our clients find all of the solutions out there as opposed to just a normal traditional, I’ll call it real estate agent MLS solution. There’s more than just that. And I think these, these companies are one of those things. So how do we use them as a tool in our tool belt as real estate agents to help those people who trust us to help them. Another way to do it is their source of business. They could actually be source of business because as I said a minute ago, they don’t buy everything. So how to put Find out what they’re doing with the leads of the homes, they’re not going to buy that they’re literally just turning down right away because they don’t fit the criteria. Is there a way to work with those people? Maybe from a referral perspective? So I mean, there’s a few different ways to work with these companies. And so those are a couple of the ones that just kind of come to mind.

Jeff Stephens
Yeah. That makes a lot of sense to me. And and I think there is some alignment there with what I’ve been thinking about too, just from the investment side. You know, what I feel like I do and what I teach other people to do is be like a professional acquirer of real estate. So my main client is a seller. Now the client or the seller doesn’t think of themselves as my client, right? They don’t think of me as a service provider they’ve hired they just think of me as somebody who’s buying their property. But when I think about it from the perspective of the seller, which to me, the whole thing is oriented around the seller. From the perspective of the seller, there is a spectrum of experiences. And so I think, in real estate, we think a lot about outcomes in terms of like, How much money did I get, and how fast did it go. But there’s also this other spectrum, the experiential spectrum.

And what I really, I don’t know if it’s, it’s that I like about the iBuyer thing, but the thing that makes me not be concerned about the iBuyer thing, and maybe even a little bit happy about it, is that as the one end of the spectrum gets more and more and more, I don’t know, you know, automated technology oriented, one size fits all type of approach. It, it emphasizes the difference, but even more and more and more between that and what’s at the other end of the spectrum because I’m at the other end of the spectrum, I’m the extremely relational. Sit down, you know, if we need to meet an hour a week for the next six months, that’s what’s gonna happen. I’m going to absolutely know your dog’s name and how old your kids are. And like everything in between, as well as everything about your actual real estate situation too. And so to me, I guess what I’m saying is, if there was like a contrast knob on the real estate market, like the ibuyers just came and just kind of grab the contrast knob and just turn it way up, so that it makes the different options more and more clear as to how different they are. And it doesn’t mean that more people are going to find the experience that I am able to provide more advantageous or more attractive or anything like that. But it’s it is certainly going to make it more distinctly different. I don’t know if that makes any sense but or if that relates at all to how you’re seeing it kind of for real estate agents too.

Kevin Kauffman
Yeah, I think Well, here’s the other so here’s the other thing here’s what so at the core of this here’s what I really think because a lot of people will go it’ll have my perspective from a standpoint of we’ve had them here in our in the Phoenix market for five and a half years I mean opened or closed their first transaction, August of 2014 so it’s been a while they do, they say they I’m kind of lumping them all together these ibuyers by hundreds and hundreds of houses every year, sorry, every month here in the Phoenix market, and they sell hundreds of homes every every month in the Phoenix market. So they’re a big part of what we do. We’ve seen them go from this startup, you know, of doing a deal here and there and, you know, having like 12% and service fees and, you know, on top of their lower, you know, their, their offer that wasn’t very good to begin with, to having a real streamlined process and not like their fees are, are really pretty much in line with that of a real estate transaction. You know, a traditional real estate transaction, I should say. And so, I see these happening and what I what I know is this like they are providing an option to the consumer and turning the volume up on the fact that that option is available. And there’s a certain number, here’s what I firmly believe in use will never be able to convince me otherwise, you probably believe the same thing based on your experience is that there’s just a certain number of people who will sign up for that option.

You know, that’s what real estate agents struggle with, I think as a whole, is that they think that every single seller wants the same thing. And that’s the most amount of money, period. Everybody believes that the seller wants the most amount of money no matter what. And that’s not always the case, it doesn’t mean that they don’t want to get the most amount of money. Also, it What I’m saying is they don’t always prioritize that number one over say, convenience, or certainty, or fill in the blank of whatever is most important to them. So I think what I tend to do, you know, a lot of real estate agents will tell you that, well, it’s bad because they’re going to get less money, they won’t, okay, yeah, they’re going to get less money, but they’re also going to get it tomorrow. or next week, and they’re also not gonna have to have somebody walk through their home, and if that’s what they want, and that’s what they should have. And so I think at the end of the day, no matter what, what these companies have done is they’ve they’ve, they’ve responded to something in the marketplace for consumers that wasn’t being met by my group of people, as real estate agents and your group of people as real estate investors, there was a certain level that we weren’t meeting a need. And so now they’ve come in and done that. And it’s, here’s why I think it’s good. It’s forces us to get better at what we do. And it doesn’t mean that it’s going to get rid of you and me, it means that you and I have to do better. And that’s not to say that we’re not both doing well and you know, or doing right by people because we always I think we’ve always done right by people. Yet it’s forced us to go How do we do this better? How do we serve our clients at a higher level, and most importantly, kind of meet the needs or the demands of the consumer today versus what we think they need just because that’s the way it’s always been done, or that’s the way we’ve always done it.

Jeff Stephens
Yeah. I really, really, really like that perspective. I, I used to run a branding agency for about 10 years. And so I spent a lot of time at that point, like philosophizing around brand and differentiation and positioning and stuff like that. And one of the things that just always drove me nuts was sort of the idea that that we honestly think that we are the right fit for everybody, and we want to, like talk everybody else into thinking that we are the right fit for everybody. And that’s just simply not the case. And it’s totally okay, that it’s not the case. Right, you know, we’re, we’re designed for a certain, you know, to kind of deliver a certain outcome with a certain experience. We’re a good fit for some people, not so great of a fit for others. And so I totally, absolutely agree with what you’re just saying is that that’s it’s just not our strike zone to be that way, so we we just need to be extra good in the thing that really is our strength, so.

Kevin Kauffman
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I think you nailed it.

Jeff Stephens
Yeah. Okay. So when you think about really great real estate agents and I guess let’s let’s focus on agents, maybe more than like people who are trying to build a brokerage company or brokerage business, but when you think about great real estate agents, what are some of the traits that they sort of jump out at you as the themes among some of the most quality people in that role?

Kevin Kauffman
I think the most quality people, you know, are that some of the some of those themes are number one and people who are driven. I have always said, I should say, I’ve always I learned this from a friend a couple years ago. I’m never gonna if I won’t drag anybody to the starting line. So these people get themselves to the starting line, right? They’re not gonna, they don’t need to be told what to do. Like when you become a real estate agent. Yes, there’s some mechanics and you have to learn some things but you don’t need to be told to show up and, and learn, right. So I think there’s some a lot of like self study that is involved in being a really great real estate agent.

I think that one of the other common themes I see is people who, who truly want to help other people. I think that coming from a place of contribution, and giving back to other people, is a common theme. I see I see among great real estate agents. I also see people that are, they have a lot of grit right there, they can get kicked in the teeth and get back up. In fact, a lot of them are getting kicked in the teeth right now in 2020, right? And it’s gonna help them keep going like they will get past it. They will keep going. You know, so I think those are some some of the very common things and I would say to add another one would be someone who’s very teachable, like they’re willing to not know everything and to learn from others, whether that be from people or from experiences, or from a workbook, right, like just willing to learn.

Jeff Stephens
Yeah, that is a great list. And I, you know, I didn’t tell you in advance, I was gonna ask you that question. And I had no idea what you’re going to say. But deep down, I had this guest that probably everything you would say. And that answer would be something that I would look at and go. I think that is a great success trait of a thoughtful real estate entrepreneur as well. And I absolutely do all those things you just mentioned, I think are, are totally transferable, which is now maybe I’m doing confirmation bias here, Kevin, but I feel like I’m trying to build in my mind this argument that great real estate agents probably if, you know, with some, like a little adaptation of thinking in certain situations probably have a lot of the same. Some of the skills that would set them up really well to be successful in real estate investing. You know if they have that interest or that passion.

Kevin Kauffman
I hundred percent believe that to be true, I believe one of the things that’s great about the real estate business in general, is that it’s a great training ground for any business. You know, I got into real estate wanting to be all about real estate. I fell in love with business while I was in real estate. Meaning like the whole, like putting that whole, all of those pieces of the puzzle together to operate a business. That’s the thing that really gets me going these days.

And so yeah, absolutely, I would say, you know, obviously, I’ve never been a real estate investing entrepreneur or in you know, I would never have called myself an investor, like us as a loan title, which have made some investments, but not I would love to call myself an investor. And I would agree if you said to me, Hey, Kevin, what do you think it’s going to take to be really good at real estate investing? As an entrepreneur, what would it take? I guess I probably would name those things as well, like that would that would definitely those would be on the list. Cuz I think those are transferable, right. If you don’t, I think if you can’t do those things anyways, like you’re gonna have a hard time succeeding regardless and if you can, the world’s probably your oyster, it’s just a matter of learning. Learning the different things like the technicalities, if you will, inside what it’s like to say do run your business for sale run my business.

Jeff Stephens
Yeah. Yeah. Well, I like all the things you just said they’re the one that really, I latched on to probably the the most strongly was the one about helping others and a couple weeks ago, you know, we’re recording this as the world is changing rapidly with Corona virus pandemic, and maybe three or so weeks ago, I started having this really kind of strong feeling that all of the sudden here we’re finding ourselves in what what I’ve been calling now, the perfect storm of ethical opportunity for real estate entrepreneurs who because exactly that point of helping others because I believe that probably just with the economic effects of everything that’s going on, they’re going to be a whole bunch more people who are going to have new sets of problems and maybe even frankly, weird sets of real estate problems that need to be, they’re going to need some, not one size fits all, not just right off the shelf kind of out of the box, helping solutions. And so I think that if you have that, that trait of wanting to help others and you’re, you know, kind of good at having an open mind and asking good questions and things like that, that you’re really well suited to help people especially coming into this sort of, you know, the new world of business and life in real estate.

Kevin Kauffman
I couldn’t agree more. I was on the phone with a good friend of mine who actually runs a marketing company in real estate and also investor probably owns 75 or 80 different rental properties. The day that well other day, it was Thursday, March 12. I know that because it was the day I decided to postpone our annual our big event. It was the date Sunday, close my office and tell everyone, they couldn’t work from the office anymore. And I’ll never forget, I’m standing outside my house talking to him since Frank and I just said, You know, I think frank, I don’t know if it’s going to be in six months or a year, but whatever, we’re going to look back on this day, in this time, and like what’s going on right now is going to, unfortunately, because in his world, too, he deals mostly with real estate agents and as UI, unfortunately, it’s gonna break a lot of people there will be a lot of people who probably file bankruptcy because of this, and there’s probably gonna be a lot of people who get rich from this and I think there’s gonna be a lot of room for people to get rich from an ethical opportunity like you just mentioned, because there are so many people that are going to end up in a tight spot. I mean, there’s always a certain amount of people there anyways, but when you have the squeeze put on like we’ve had put on in this country in the last 30 days and for however much longer this lasts, you know, that just creates more opportunity to help people and I believe you can I firmly believe you can simultaneously help people do do good for people and find an opportunity to create something that is can turn into income slash investment slash something of value, whether now or in the future.

Jeff Stephens
Yeah. I think so, too. And it feels weird to say like, I’m excited about the upcoming period, right? Because it’s, it’s already difficult, it’s probably only going to get more difficult but if your business is about kind of creating value there, I think there’s just gonna be a lot more at bats, so to speak, to go go out and create value in the world.

Kevin Kauffman
Totally agree.

Jeff Stephens
As you know, as a person who works. I mean, I know like you said you’re not driving people around and showing them properties but you are in the business of ultimately helping buyers buy properties ultimately helping sellers. Sell them. Maybe just taking one at a time, like with buyers moving into this new era here, what are some of the things that you feel like? Because there’s a lot of buyers listening to this right now, you know, maybe not necessarily retail, primary residence type buyers, but certainly investment type buyers as well. What are some of the things that are on your mind right now that buyers need to be doing to be, you know, prudent about moving forward with acquisitions now?

Kevin Kauffman
Well, you know, I think number one is, when you cash that’s such a hard question and a lot of ways. I know it’s simple, but it’s also to me, it’s, you know, there’s a lot of layers, I think, number one is and this is just going to sound so obvious is not getting into a place of too much leverage and too much overextension. I think one of the things that has kind of scared me and also helped you know, I didn’t think about this earlier when we’re talking about it helped me to not get as far into the investment side is I know some people that have done it from an extreme leverage standpoint standpoint, and they’re, you know, the squeeze gets put on them and it’s twice as bad as the rest of us. And so I think not doing that I think it’s always prudent not to get too far leveraged. Although we all have our own appetite for risk. I know I’m not risk averse by any means.

But I think making sure that we’re not too far out of bounds when it comes to that stuff. I think the the other thing is just kind of what you and I were just talking about it which is not looking at things through the same lens you always have. I don’t believe finding an investment today has to look like it looked like yesterday. I don’t think it has to look like 20% down or you know, it doesn’t I guess what I’m saying is it doesn’t have to look any one way. It can look a million different ways like the way we would always teach it when we were teaching in the outback, which is when you can get two people to agree to help each other get what they want, like that’s all that it takes, right and everything else doesn’t matter as long as it’s legal and ethical, nothing else matters. So I think just we’re gonna just approaching things from what are my possibilities and how can I do this with the least amount of exposure? Should things get worse is always a good way to look at things especially now.

Jeff Stephens
Yeah. Yeah, I think that’s a really good I think that’s a really good point. Yeah, cuz it’s, it’s changing is changing quickly. And I think then for a lot of buyers probably, you know, the the gut, or like the knee jerk reaction is like, well, pause right. But what concerns me about pausing is that if the engine of your business is acquisition, right, and again, that’s different if you’re just, you know, buying a home for yourself to live in. That’s not necessarily the engine of your business. But if you are an investor and the engine of your business is buying property or doing deals, you know, you can pause for a while. But pretty soon, like when things kind of start running again, you’re going to be starting from zero and you’re going to be the engine is going to be cold, you know, and that that concerns me too. So I feel like there’s this really delicate balance as a as an active investor buyer at to find a way to keep moving forward, but obviously to be doing it with your head on a swivel, kind of just being aware that the ground is moving and changing beneath you, and what are some of the ways you can you know, protect yourself in there? And then so what about the seller side of this equation? I’m guessing that you know, your teams are probably receiving a lot of questions from sellers like okay, either now is probably the best time or the worst time to sell what do you think I should do? What’s your kind of collective opinion on on that?

Kevin Kauffman
I think the reality is you everyone’s scenario is different. I think what I would tell people who are considering selling is there are still people who are buying, even even the people that are just looking to acquire a primary I say just like you who people who are actually looking to acquire a primary residence. Those are those transactions are still going on. Don’t get me wrong, there’s less happening today than there was three or four weeks ago. But it is still going on. There is a, you know, a lot of activity out there. I think one of the things that is lucky or fortunate maybe is the right word. During this time, that was not true.

In 2006, 07, 08, 09 kind of meltdown is that this wasn’t caused from an economic crash, right. This was a this is a health thing right then has caused the economy to slow down or almost stopped at this point. But when we look at the housing market, like the housing market, actually was the initial cause of what happened last time, the housing market now has been super healthy. You know, not even healthy, I would say thriving in a lot of ways like, here in the Phoenix area as an example, we had going into March 1, we literally had 41, 42% fewer homes for sale this march than we did last March. So like it like there’s extremely low amount of supply and a high amount of demand. So even though the demand has dropped off, there still a healthy amount, amount of demand compared to the amount of supply that’s available for sale. And so if you’re a seller today, what I would tell you is, yes, things are different. We’ve got to be cautious, right, we’ve got health concerns. We’ve got a lot of different concerns. The financing landscape is changing, almost daily. And yet there are still transactions going on and I think it’s okay.

Or I should say I think that we’re going to be okay, you’re still gonna sell your home like that’s the thing about this. The thing I love about real estate I love about our industry is that no matter how good or bad things are, people always need to buy and sell real estate for different reasons, right? There’s always going to be people who need a bigger home because their family is expanded. Unfortunately, there’s always going to be divorces, there’s going to be deaths, there’s going to be job transfers, there’s going to be a lot of different things that prompt people to move no matter how good or bad the market is. And so there’s always an opportunity to buy or sell. It’s, it’s about you know, do you have to or is it optimal you know, if you have the, you know, when you say you take a job transfer and you got to move across the country. Well, like the chances are like you don’t, you don’t get to wait it out. Most likely, you’re gonna just have to sell when it when it happens. And if you have the ability to wait something out, then that’s great. But I think the reality is, is that something about the real estate industry, most people don’t really get is regardless of if it appears to be quote unquote good or strong, which usually is a seller’s market can move in the public size. Or if it’s quote unquote bad or a buyers market in, you know, bad in the buy in the public size, there’s still an opportunity because people are always buying and selling real estate, no matter what it actually is never. It has never stopped completely.

Jeff Stephens
Yeah. Yep, that’s good. I feel I feel very much the same way. And if you can be resilient enough in terms of adapting how you do what you do, they’ll always be plenty to do, I think. Yeah, that’s cool.

Kevin Kauffman
Yeah, it’s like one of the, you know, one of my mentors early on taught me, he’s like, you know, the reality is, is the market never determines whether or not you can be successful. The only thing it has to say so in his in your strategy.

Jeff Stephens
That’s so well said. Yeah. And strategies will be adapting here. I mean, starting pretty much right now, I mean, they’ll have to so hopefully the Agile people who are willing to Yeah, I mean, maybe unlearn some things that they’ve done, learn some new things, but be be willing to adapt a little bit I think are set up to succeed and thrive.

Kevin Kauffman
Totally.

Jeff Stephens
So let me wrap it up with one totally different, like, non timely kind of question and something I think that you and I probably have a lot in common. I was reading an article about about you actually, before this kind of getting the right frame of mind and it brought an abundance mentality. And that’s something that’s it’s begun in my mind as well. And I think even Genius Network where you and I met sort of abundance mentality is sort of a big part of the framework there even so, what what does it mean to you abundance mentality?

Kevin Kauffman
Oh, that’s a good one. What is it? You know, I think it’s just if at the end of the day it means there’s enough, there’s always enough, there’s no matter what, there’s always enough, it doesn’t matter if we’re talking about real estate deals and transactions, or we’re talking about money. We’re talking about ways to make money or we’re talking about anything, insert anything that anybody ever has needed. I think there’s always enough. And if there’s always enough, for me, that’s motivation to go, okay, great, then I just need to, if I don’t currently have enough, I just need to look at things differently in order I gotta have a different viewpoint in order to see it. And I guess that’s how I look for I guess that’s how I think about it.

Jeff Stephens
Yeah, I totally agree. To me, like my own simple kind of personal definition of abundance mentality is it like for me to when the other person is not to lose or vice versa. And then if it does seem like that, then we’re just looking at it from the wrong angle. We need to kind of walk around the scenario and see it from a different perspective because I think there’s almost always a way to align the interests of different people so that everybody’s getting, everybody’s getting what they want.

Kevin Kauffman
Yeah, totally. I think that you know, there it’s possible, you know, going back to, to something I learned from, from another early mentor of mine and kind of a guy who owned a leadership company, leadership and development training company is you can have win-win like, it doesn’t have to be win, lose. Win Win can happen and I think Win Win can only happen if you have an abundance mindset or thought process of abundance. If you don’t have a thought process abundance, then everything is zero sum. Everything you look at in life is zero sum and I just, I don’t think it is I think there’s always a way to find a win win.

Jeff Stephens
Yeah, I absolutely agree. I absolutely agree. Kevin, this is super fun chatting and I know a nice wide range of things we covered from you know, like the business of being a real estate agent or or grow a brokerage to investing and and lots of other stuff in between. So if people want to learn more about you, what is the best way to do that?

Kevin Kauffman
You know, there, I guess. Gosh, that’s a good question; I didn’t think about that before we got on here. I would say um, if you’re, you know, if you’re a real estate agent, probably the best way is to either check out our Facebook group called next level agents, or to check out our our real estate podcast called the Kevin and Fred Show. I’m active on Twitter and Instagram and Facebook and all that. But those are probably the easiest places to find me out is is on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, or, or our podcasts.

Jeff Stephens
Okay, excellent. And your last name. You get two F’s in the middle there, right?

Kevin Kauffman
Yep, two F’s.

Jeff Stephens
All right. Kevin, thank you so much for spending time with me. I really, really appreciate it.

Kevin Kauffman
Hey, man, it was my pleasure today, Jeff. I thanks so much for the opportunity.

Jeff Stephens
Absolutely.

Thank you for listening to sleaze free real estate investing. I hope you enjoyed that interview with Kevin Kauffman as much as I did, and I hope you learned as much from that episode, as I learned just by conducting it. with Kevin, I really believe that the more we can understand, relate to empathize with and learn to collaborate with real estate agents, the better we can be as real estate entrepreneurs ourselves. Please again, if you wouldn’t mind, do yourself a big favor do us a big favor by hitting the subscribe button in your podcast app. That way you’ll know that the second the next episode is released and it really helps iTunes to show our show to other people and help us get discovered. Remember there are show notes for today’s episode at www dot thoughtfulre.com slash e three three. Until next time, this is Jeff from the Thoughtful Real Estate Entrepreneur, signing off.

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