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It’s no secret that if you want to grow a portfolio, buying multifamily rentals can boost your portfolio size, door count and monthly income quickly. In this episode, Jeff interviews multifamily real estate investing legend Rod Khleif. Rod shares his epic journey—including both highs and lows—in real estate investing, explains why he feels we will be facing an economic downturn, discusses the importance of giving, and explains “seller bonding” and how it can be used to buy properties with Seller Financing.
Rod Khleif is the author of “How to Create Lifetime Cash Flow Through Multifamily Properties: The New Rules of Real Estate Investing,” and one of the leading educators for multifamily real estate investors.
Episode Transcript
Rod
The other thing I want to tell you is if you’re dealing with retirees seller bonding is huge, okay? At that age, people are more interested in the relationship than they are in the finances. And so you focus on making friends first not to take advantage of them, I’ll hunt you down but but to create a win win situation right to to, and you bond with them. And I will tell you, I have bonded with elderly sellers, where I didn’t pay anything down. They just wanted the payment is a large deal too. And I have bonded with sellers where I didn’t make a payment for a year because the property was trashed, I think was a five unit. And I’m like, you know, whatever their name was, I don’t remember anymore. You know, you know, the property is trashed, I need to put money back into it as I rent units. And and I’ll pay you as quickly as I’ve done, that was the truth. And I bonded with them, and I make a payment for a year. So that’s what’s possible seller bonding, super important with retirees. But seller financing is extraordinary. And there’s so many different ways to structure deals.
Jeff Stephens
Welcome to Racking Up Rentals, a show about how regular people, those of us without huge war chest of capital or insider connections, can build lasting wealth acquiring a portfolio of buy and hold real estate. But we don’t just go mainstream looking at what’s on the market and asking banks for loans, nor are we posting We Buy Houses signs are just looking for “motivated sellers” to make lowball offers to. You see, we are people-oriented deal makers, we sit down directly with sellers to work out win-win deals without agents or any other obstacles, and buy properties nobody else even knows are for sale. I’m Jeff from the Thoughtful Real Estate Entrepreneur. If you’re the kind of real estate investor who wants long term wealth, not get rich quick gimmicks or pictures of yourself holding fat checks on social media, this show is for you. Join me and quietly become the wealthiest person on your block. Now let’s go rack up a rental portfolio.
Thank you very much for joining me for another episode of Racking Up Rentals. Show notes for this episode can be found at www.thoughtfulre.com/e188. Please do us a big favor by hitting that subscribe button in your podcast app, it does make a big difference in helping other fellow thoughtful real estate entrepreneurs who are searching for a community in a message like this to find it. Alright, so onward with today’s episode.
And in today’s episode, I have interviewed one of I think it’s fair to say the giants of the real estate investing education industry, especially in the focus area of multifamily investing. Rod Cleef. Now it was really a pleasure to get to meet Ron and get to know about him. But this interview is really interesting. And he really shares a lot of his own insights around where he thinks we are in the current market cycles and what some of the important things are to consider when you think about multifamily investing versus other types of investing such as smaller multifamily investing and single family investing, he tells his story, which is pretty interesting and dramatic. He’s had, I think, if I remember his expression correctly, some very dramatic highs, but also some spectacular lows. And we get to hear a little bit about that, in this interview, as well. Now, Rod knows that we here on this show are very focused on working directly with sellers and relationships and that a lot of us are buying properties in the maybe two to four, five to 10 unit range, instead of syndicating larger deals. And so he did a great job of giving us insight into bigger deal projects, hundreds of units and syndicating financing that way, but also adapted it really nicely to some of our context for buying smaller multifamily direct with sellers as well. So enough of me. Let’s get to this interview with Rod Cleef. Well, Rod, thanks for taking the time to hang out with me today. I appreciate you being here.
Rod
Let’s have some fun, brother. I’m really looking forward to it.
Jeff Stephens
Yeah, me too. I’ve been looking forward to it all week. This is like the cherry on top of a great week and the end of a Friday. It’s fantastic.
Rod
Kind of you to say that. Thank you.
Jeff Stephens
Yeah. Well, let’s start with just a little bit of context for our listeners, you have had a heck of a ride in your career already. So far, some some very notable ups and some very notable downs. And I know what brought you to a point where you wanted to. You wanted to help spread the spread the love and share knowledge. Can you tell us a little bit about kind of how you got to this point where you would be, you know, podcaster with almost 900 episodes and guests on other podcasts and one of the largest educators in the country. Tell us how you got there.
Rod
Well, thank you. I’m glad you said so far. By the way. I appreciate you putting that in there. Thank you. I am six at three years old, but I’m nowhere near done. Well, let’s see, I’m gonna go way back because I think it’ll lend some context to what we’re going to talk about. So I’m a Dutch immigrant. I was born in the Netherlands, you know, think wouldn’t shoes and windmills and emigrated when I was six years old with my brother Albert, my mother’s Moncho. And we ended up in Denver, Colorado, and really struggled initially. So, you know, we didn’t have much and I remember my mom babysat kids, we always had a house full of kids, so that we’d have enough money to eat. And with her babysitting money, she actually became kind of an entrepreneur. And so she invested in the stock market successfully and IPOs. But she also invested in real estate, her first real estate acquisition was the house directly across the street from us when I was 14, she paid $30,000. And then when I was 17, she told me she’d made $20,000 in her sleep that had gone up in value that much. And I said, what this is when 20,000 was a lot of money, I said, you made 20 grand, you didn’t do anything screw College, I’m getting into real estate. So I went out got my real estate broker’s license, right? When I turned 18, which you were able to do back then with education. You know, I could have my own office, I was a broker. Now they got smart, you need some experience before you can be a broker. But, you know, I got into real estate, I was still living at home with mom. And my first year in real estate, I made about eight grand. My second year, I made about 10 grand, but my third year, I made over $100,000, which back in 1980 was some decent money. And so what happened between year two and year three that caused me to 10x my income.
Well, what happened was I met a guy his name was Gino, I was actually dating his daughter. And he taught me about the importance of mindset and psychology and are really 80 to 90% of your success in anything is just that your mindset and psychology. And, you know, fast forward to today, Jeff, I’ve owned over 2000 houses that I’ve rented long term in three states, I own 1000s of apartment units. Now, in 2006, my net worth went up about 1716 $16 million while I slept. And you might say, well, actually, it was 17. Now that I’m sorry, I’m having a brain fart here was $17 million. And you might say wow, and I said, Wow, and I got ahead so big, I could barely fit it through a door. And you know, when that happens, God of the universe, the country have a tendency to give you a nice little Smackdown.
Well, that was 2008, I lost that 17 million, a whole lot more, I feel lost $50 million in 2008. Nine and, and so you know, what I’m known for talking about on my podcast, and my, my boot camps and on social media and whatnot is really a lot about mindset, that mindset for me that it took to have 50 million to lose in the first place. And then probably more important, the mindset it took to recover from losing all that to the success that I’m blessed to have today. So, you know, I’m happy to drill down on some of that strategy with you if you like, because I think you know, I think it’ll help even if you’re if you’re listening and you’ve already got some assets, and you want to take it to another level or, you know, you’re doing some real estate, because I think soup is common, I think the you know what’s about to hit that you know what, and, and fear will be pervasive. So, you know, again, if you’d like me to expand a little bit on some of these strategies, I’m happy to do that.
Jeff Stephens
Yeah, I absolutely would. And you know, I think one of the initial questions or just reactions is, when you hear about somebody who, who has a very challenging experience, I mean, that I can’t even I don’t think I know of any stories that are more dramatic than what you just mentioned, and that type of a loss. But now you are back back in the game, there are lots and lots of people I think would just be scared off entirely. Right. So shoulders, some of the things that made you say, Alright, I’m going to come back, I’m going to, you know, build myself back up. And I’m gonna stay in a similar game, but I’m sure there’s a lot of things you’re doing differently as well. So I guess maybe what didn’t scare you off about that? And what are some of the key things that you have been for the last, you know, decade or so 15 years been doing differently than you were doing before that?
Rod
Well, it was it was my single family that pulled me down. So I had 800 houses along the Gulf Coast of Florida here two hours north of me two hours south of me and everywhere in between, and also had some apartment complexes and it was the houses that pulled me down I was only at a 30% loan to value I only owed 30 cents on the dollar and I still crashed and burned so here’s why. And I don’t always drill down on this but I will since you asked it the way you did so in Florida there’s no state income tax so property taxes are proportionately higher which impacts cash flow. I had properties in wind and flood zones higher insurance which impacts cash flow because I’m along the Gulf here but what really killed me is these 800 houses were C Class houses you know, there’s a B, C and D Ds the hood stay out of the hood and a is brand new these were see older properties, rundown in some cases, and I’d fix them back up but a tougher demographic as well. So lots of maintenance.
Now see if I had to send a maintenance guy to one of my apartment complexes everything’s the same. So you know Plumbing Parts, electrical parts. HVAC parts, you know, window locks, door locks, everything’s the same. So we could stockpile parts and they’re in and out in an hour. Well, if I just send somebody that’s an hour and a half away, one way to see what’s wrong with the house, and they gotta go see what’s wrong, every house is different than they’ve got to go find a Home Depot or Lowe’s, where we had to have an account. And you know, that could be an hour, hour and a half round trip. And so what took an hour at one of my apartment complexes to call day one of my 800 houses, and these had a lot of maintenance. So these guys were always running around and and that really killed the cashflow.
But what the, the kind of the final straw was I didn’t really pay attention to tenant demographics back then. So you know, if they if they had a good job, they had decent credit. And they put a deposit down and allowed them to rent. And what I didn’t realize until after it was all blown up was I had a ton of contractors in my homes, plumbers, electricians, drywallers, painters, roofers and all that fell off a cliff in 2008, nine didn’t have work. And so the whole thing kind of imploded, I just couldn’t hold it together. And unfortunately, I’d cross collateralized my apartment buildings with packages or houses to save 50 basis points, you know, half a percent interest. So I lost everything. And you know, but it’s, you know, it was painful. But I never lost the drive. I mean, I knew you know, that I had the drive and I call them seminars, that was a $50 million seminar.
Now in my career so far, Jeff, I’ve started 27 businesses, I was shocked when I counted this a couple of years ago, 27 businesses, several worth 10s of millions of dollars, most spectacular flaming seminars, okay, but we, we, we fail our way to success, okay. There really is no failure, unless you don’t get back up, you don’t get the lesson. And that’s why I call them seminars. And you know, and so, you know, what I did to get back on my feet was the strategies I was just going to describe as well. The first thing is, I got really clear on what I wanted, again, I really associated with my goals. And so for example, if you come to one of my boot camps, the first hour, literally first hour and a half is goal setting, I call it goal setting on steroids, because how the heck do you get anything Jeffie if you don’t know what it is, you got to know what you want, you’ve got to know why you want it. And so, you know, you know, here’s the here’s the sad reality, people spend more time planning a freaking Christmas party or birthday party than they do designing their lives. And this is designing your life. And, and by the way, I’ll mention this, I do my goal setting workshop here in my studio with music professionally done every New Year’s Day, for the year. And here’s here’s where you can access it, go to rods, links.com rods links.com. And at the bottom is my goal setting workshop, and there’s a guide, you can download, I’m not going to try to sell you anything, do it with your spouse, if your kids over 10 years old, have them do it, it’s incredibly powerful. And, and to get clear on what you want and why you want it especially in what’s coming.
Okay. With, you know, with with this economic environment that we’re in, I really believe we’ve it’s a train heading towards a brick wall, particularly in commercial real estate. And we can drill down on why I believe that if you’d like and and, and so there’s going to be a lot of fear. And don’t get me started on the news. It’s all crap anyway, and you don’t know what to believe with the news anymore. And just don’t forget this, the news is not a public service thing. It’s a poor profit thing. And so the scarier they can make it the more you know, negative they can make it the better they do. And so but but going if you’re listening to this, or watching this on YouTube, or whatever, Jeff and I, you’re a leader, and right now the world leads leaders more than ever, but as a leader, you got to pay attention to your focus. And so, you know, it’s going to be really easy to get distracted by the fear mongering on the news. But if you’ve got your goals done, and you’re clear on what you want, and you focus on that, this could be the greatest opportunity for transfer of wealth in our history, if it gets as bad as I think it’s gonna get. And so, you know, but you got to be up to speed, you got to be ready. So it starts with goals. You know, and then after that, you’ve got to make a decision.
Okay, after you clear on what you want, you’ve got to make a decision. And you know, the Latin word for the word decision means to cut off, okay? It’s not a dip in the toe in the water. It’s not one foot in one foot out. I mean, you decided is freakin done. An example of a real decision would be you attack the island and battle you burn your ships because you’re taking their ships home, that’s a decision, it’s done. And then you’re committed. And once you’re committed, you’re like a train on a track. But if you’re not committed, you’re gonna get knocked off track. So it starts with a decision. And then you got to take the first step, you know, and, and, and it can be the biggest step of your life.
You know, Dr. Martin Luther King said the journey of 1000 miles begins with a single, I’m sorry, that was loud, too loud. Susa. The journey of 1000 miles begins with a single step. Dr. Martin Luther King said, You take that first step and faith in the next step will be revealed. But you got to take it and I see it with my students all the time. And I call it’s like the law of the first deal. It’s six months and they don’t have one yet. It’s eight months in and you know, sometimes even a year and they’re moaning and I pushing them and everything else, and then they get one. And next thing you know, they have three more like what just happened, you know, that first deal, it’s the scariest taste the longest, it’s the most stressful. And then once it’s done, they realize it’s, it’s, you know, it’s not that big a deal. But you’ve got to take that first step. And, you know, so and then I would say you got to play to your strengths.
The multifamily real estate game, especially the world I live in, which is, you know, commercial multifamily five units or larger, I know, you do a lot of residential multifamily, which is two to four units. But in my world, it’s a team sport, you can do residential on your own, I mean, I bought 2000 houses pretty much on my own, but I would not buy 150 250 400 unit apartment complex on my own, it’s a team sport. And, and honestly, that’s a plus. Because there are a lot of different hats you can wear in this business, you could be the outgoing person, you know, that’s building the relationships with the investors or the brokers or, you know, sellers. Or you can be the analytical person, I mean, real estate’s a pretty empirical, it’s primarily numbers, you get the numbers, right, you ask all the right questions, pretty hard to make a big mistake. So you need somebody that’s analytical that can underwrite a deal. And then you know, you also need a process driven person, somebody that has maybe managed people or done construction management or construction, to do the asset management after you buy an asset, you know, we call them assets, these larger properties. And so, you know, so but you got to play to your strengths, because your strengths are your greatest assets. And, you know, people will tell you to build your weaknesses, and I completely disagree, because if you’re playing to your strengths, first of all, it’s what you’re good at. So you love it, okay, so you’re going to be good at it, you’re going to love it. And if you’re doing what you love, you’ll never work another day in your life, right to work is play. And, but even more importantly than that, if you’re if you’re playing to your strengths, and you love it, you’re going to be passionate about it. And to influence people requires passion. And people, you know, they want to be around people they can feel are passionate about what they’re doing. And certainly any business doesn’t even have to be real estate requires that that ability to influence and passion makes that so much easier. So yeah, but yeah, please, I’m gonna keep going. So if you want to interrupt me and ask, because I couldn’t go,
Jeff Stephens
No, I appreciate the passion, I’m really glad that you brought up the idea of, of playing to your strengths, I actually I feel like that notion is not maybe as common in this real estate space as I as I would expect it to be. I find a lot of times people my perception anyway, is that people start learning real estate, and then it’s kind of overwhelming by itself. And they get they get this subconscious idea in their mind that there is an exact way you do real estate, that that this is the template and you must conform to the template, but I’m often thinking, I wish these people would, would take the time to think more about their own unique talents and gifts, and then actually design their own approach to real estate because there’s obviously a billion different ways to go about real estate are for so a lot of the people who listen to this show, I would say, are probably relationship oriented types of folks, that would be one of their talents. Okay, sitting listening, connecting, building rapport with people. If if you were working with somebody who had that type of people skills, skill set, you know, probably among others, but they want to highlight
Rod
that’s their primary one. That’s the one they enjoy. They’re, they’re an extrovert. In other words, well, I here’s what I would tell them to do, I would tell them to be the one that builds the relationships with the brokers be the one that’s out there raising money for deals, and that’s the beautiful thing, like in your world, your deals are primarily, people are coming out of pocket, maybe there’s some partnerships and things like that. But in my world, people raise money for these deals. Now these big multifamily properties take money, but it doesn’t have to be your own money. That’s the amazing thing. And so, you know, I can tell you, I’m gonna brag for a minute, my students, I’ve been teaching a little over five years, my students on somewhere between 160 and 170,000 units. Now, we’re counting right now we’re at about 158. And it’s going up and we’ve got a whole bunch more people to talk to, and I think it’s going to hit 170. But the thing about that is, is most of those visual, my warriors, my students, most of those deals were done between warriors. And so people playing to their strengths.
I would tell you play to your strengths, hire a line or partner for your weaknesses. Some of the best partnerships that I see in my world, which is, you know, moderately larger multifamily, just very much larger multifamily is a match made in heaven is an analytical person with an outgoing person and analytical introvert with an outgoing extrovert, man, I see that time and time again. And those are matches made in heaven because both things are required in this business. Now sometimes I’ll meet people that are great at both. I just interviewed one today one of my warriors that has I was shocked him and he had an 8000 over 1000 units now, and and occasionally I’ll meet I’ll meet, you know, one that’s greater both and he’s great at both. He’s both analytical and outgoing, but that’s unusual. That’s an anomaly but Uh, no. But you know, when, again, when you’re playing to your strengths, if you’re that kind of person, that’s a people person. You know, I mean, I am too and I didn’t realize it at first because I was very, you know, let me talk about fear and limiting beliefs for a second because it’ll lend itself to what I’m going to say next.
So, you know, a lot of people get caught up in fear. And, you know, what is fear, false evidence appearing real of everything and run, you know, I like to think it’s face everything and rise, because I will tell you that massive action eliminates fear, gratitude eliminates fear, you can’t be grateful and fearful at the same time, but, but I’m going to tell you, if you are that person, like you’re fearing failure, or fearing whatever, fear regret more than anything else, you know. There was a nurse in Australia named brawny where she was a hospice nurse. So she took care of patients when they were about to die. And she asked him a question, Jeff, and the question was, Do you have any regrets? And she wrote a book, it’s called the Five Regrets of Dying. You know, the number one regret was it was not living the life I could have lived living someone else’s life not doing what I know I’m capable of if you want to fear something, fear that don’t fear falling on your face. Again, I’ve failed 27 Well, not 27, maybe 23 times. And, and, and that’s okay. Because I get back up, I dust myself off and I keep going, you know.
I got to meet the billionaire owner of Spanx. You know, Sara Blakely, the women’s undergarments, you know, they hold it all together, started with $5,000. And she’s a billionaire now. And I met her at a mastermind that we were both at, and she told me her dad used to ask her on about a weekly basis, her brother, what have you failed at this week? And I thought, What a great freaking question. Ask your kids so they don’t fear failure.
But the other thing I want to mention is limiting beliefs. So when I immigrated to this country, I didn’t speak English, and I got thrown into school and I found out what bullies were for the first time. And then you know, it’s fun. Oh, I have it right here. Hang on. I gotta show you something. Give me one second. Sure. So, my mom proud Dutchwoman that she has sent me to school in these wooden shoes right here. We found these of the house when we put her in assisted living. And, and these letters, these leather shorts right here that the Germans were for Oktoberfest. So I got my ass kicked again, you know. And then we had we had we had some of these bullies lived on my street, and they would chase me home. And she chased them off of the flyswatter. So the next day, but kickin and I came up with this belief system that I wasn’t good enough. I used to ask myself, How can I show them I’m good enough, which of course presupposes I wasn’t.
Now see, Jeff, a lot of people have these limiting belief systems. I’m not good enough. I’m not smart enough. I’m not strong enough. I’m not analytical enough. That was another one of mine. I don’t have enough time enough money. The thing to remember is as a reason, the acronym for belief systems is BS, because 99% of them are BS. You know, it’s something that happened to us in our childhood. We think it’s real, we think it’s factual, and it’s not. So if you’re listening or watching and you’ve got one of these Bs belief systems, drag it out into the daylight when it pops up, consciously think about it, when it happens, recognize that it’s BS, and you’ll deal with it, you’ll get rid of it. I mean, I used to, I used to be afraid to raise my hand in class, afraid that I’d get embarrassed or humiliated. Now I speak in front of literally 1000s of people a year. And so you can deal with these limiting beliefs and get rid of them. Very important.
Another thing I want to mention is peer group, especially in what’s coming. When I was losing everything in 2008. I was in Tony Robbins Platinum Partnership, okay, it was about 130,000 at the time, all in with the travel and everything is more than that now. But you know, and I was around people back then that were killing it, they were thriving in that crash, they had figured out a way to capitalize on it, they were killing. And they’re like, they’re telling me like get up here, put 50 million million get up and make something happen. Now, that’s who you want to be around, right? When the you know what hits the fan, right. And so, you know, the problem is, most people default to peers that they work with, or that they went to school with, for example. And sometimes those people don’t have your best interests out of their own fear, their own limiting beliefs, fear of failure, you know, fear of being left behind fear of feeling humiliated if you succeed. And here’s the bad thing. Sometimes it’s even family. So you know, I would tell you love your family, but choose your peers proactively decide who you’re going to hang out with, you know, get around a group of people that want more out of life that aren’t going to be caught up in fear, again, especially in what we’re headed into here. And, and you’ll be great. And, you know, I think that’s why my warriors, my coaching students are so successful, because everybody’s praising each other. There’s no jealousy, it’s validation. And, anyway, keep rambling if you don’t cut me off, and as
Jeff Stephens
well, a few minutes ago, you mentioned your perspective on where we’re headed economically, and what that means for business and real estate. And I do want to get into some of those thoughts in a minute and how we can all prepare to take advantage of the opportunities and protect ourselves. But the thought that I had as I was listening to that is SK it made me wonder how does a person stay in touch enough with news and understanding what’s developing without subjecting themselves to just the insane incredible negativity that comes from being too tired to the news. I find myself airing too. Too far, probably on the one side of I don’t look at news, really at all because it’s just it’s so heavy and so negative, but at the same time, I know there’s some downsides potentially, to that. So how do you maintain? Yeah.
Rod
But yeah, no, no good question. Really good question. And I will, I will tell you, the key is not to not to not to live there. Okay, you need to stay on top of what’s happening. I get several, several emails. I get a Wall Street Journal email that kind of summarizes the main stuff that’s happened every day. I also get commercial real estate news, I see cre connect. And then my students all have a list of literally 50 news related websites all of the big brokerage houses put news out there and it’s very it’s there’s no bias there. There’s no it’s just real factual data on what’s happening in the in the real estate market. You know, Marcus and Millichap does it Grubb and Ellis does it CBRE does it all these big real estate companies that you’ve heard of put out that, you know, they have research teams that research what’s happening is geographic area. And like I say we we get those links to our students. And you know, you can look them up yourself. But but, you know, that’s the kind of news you should be paying attention to. That’s real factual base news, like talking about foreclosures that are happening, you know, the Wall Street Journal, I don’t know if you saw the Wall Street Journal a couple weeks ago about that huge foreclosure in Houston, where this operator just he wasn’t but he was see, and it taints the whole industry. Because they you know, again, they find these real nefarious characters and this guy was nefarious he ran off with 14 million is what I heard. And he’s in India now. From his investors, but you know, you’ve got to take it with a grain of salt if you’re watching ABC, CBS, NBC, even Fox you know, I don’t believe half of what I read it because I just I just, there’s such an agenda that you’ve got to, you know, really take it all with a grain of salt and I do I look at it all. Yes, I look at it all. But I have I have a lot of skepticism about what I’m seeing. But then what I but what I do though, is I bring in the good stuff, okay.
Like and I and I put out the good stuff on my podcast, I do a clip every week called Own Your Power. Okay, it’s five minutes. And I will tell you give me five minutes a week, I will juice you, okay. And I’m motivational, there’s music, they’re powerful. I’m really proud of them. There’s hundreds of them there. And And again, if you go to rodslinks.com Or if you’re driving text, the word links links 272345, text links, 272345. And, and my podcast websites there, my my boot camp sites there. Hopefully you’ll let me talk about that in a little bit. But also that goal setting like I just added a lot of free resources, my number one best selling book. Number one in multiple categories, you can get it for free, while you pay the shipping, it’s like six bucks, you pay the shipping, you get the physical copy of the book, but there’s also a lot of free books there again, so again, that’s rods links.com. And, and, but it even if you’re not going to do multifamily, if you check out the podcast, you know, like I said just do the Own Your Power clips, I think you really find them very valuable because again, 80 to 90% of this is mindset, you know, so I my students are so successful, they take action with what they learn, and, you know, only 10 to 20% of the mechanical stuff we talk about on our shows, Jeff, I know you know that. I mean, people have to take action with what they hear most people will go to a seminar, for example, and they’ll never do anything with it. 90% of them not at my events, because I spent a lot of time on mindset, but because it’s just so important.
Jeff Stephens
Yeah, yeah. Okay, so it seems clear that the weather the weather is changing around us and added I believe in this perspective, but I try to I try to think that weather is weather it’s neither necessarily good or bad. It could be a little extreme or windy, but it’s kind of more about maybe adjusting the sails to accommodate the weather rather than saying oh, this weather sucks we got to stay out or this weather is okay, so I guess assuming maybe you agree somewhat with that premise. What are some of the sales how are we adjusting the sales now to get ready for what’s coming up?
Rod
Yeah. I think the boat is going to crash into the rocks personally okay, but if you want to use the boating analogy, but with crisis comes opportunity, okay. And and I’m in a lot of cash right now I have access to a lot of cash. But again, remember that the world I play in, doesn’t require your own cash, you can raise money, and a lot of you know I’ve done it and a lot of my students have raised hundreds of millions of dollars for deals but but how are we getting ready? You know, we’re battening down the hatches just the ones, the ones of us that have, you know, units, and we’re really paying attention to our key KPIs, key performance indicators or metrics, we’re, you know, being very strong on our asset management, very, you know, meticulous with our asset management, I mean, literally, at the minimum weekly calls with our managers, and just paying attention at a micro level with what’s happening, and that’s critical right now.
Okay. Because, you know, I will tell you, you know, I’m not, for example, I’m not buying any C Class asset. It’s right now, you know, there’s a, b, c, and d, like we talked about D is the hood. A is brand new. See, I’m not even buying see assets right now, because that demographics getting killed. I mean, you know, I don’t really pay attention when I go to the grocery store, typically, if I do it for my wife, and I’ve done it last couple of times, I’m like, Are you kidding me? How do you know, I see what I’m paying? I like, Are you freaking kidding? 150 bucks for that bag of groceries? And, and I don’t know how people do it, Jeff. And then the gas as high as it is, I mean, they’re getting killed. And I’ll tell you, you know, I, I’ve got a couple articles here that I printed for this. And, you know, like, here’s one Forbes article, not expecting layoffs at 51% of US companies, according to a new survey, but but the one I really wanted to read was more than 20 million US households are behind in the utility bills. And I saw one where people are using their credit cards to pay everyday bills. Okay. Is that a recipe for freaking disaster, right? And so, again, I’m not trying to scare you, I’m trying to alert you to the fact that there is opportunity coming and I’m going to tell you, everything’s going on sale businesses there. 80 million baby boomers, many of them own businesses, that they’re going to need to sell everything’s going on sale.
You know, of course, every real estate asset classes going on sale, I wouldn’t touch your office right now. And maybe not even retail. But but you know, multifamily is fantastic. Single family is always good. As long as you’re not as spread out as I was. You know, industrials, good flexspaces, good mobile, home parks, self storage, those are all fantastic. But, you know, even people like Elon Musk, here’s a direct quote from Elon Musk, everyone’s lying exclamation mark, a bigger crash is coming. Okay? This is a pretty smart freakin guy. And here’s another one, Donald Trump Love him or hate him, warns the US economy could reach levels of the Great Depression. Okay, these are direct quotes. So, you know, I I’ve been a bear for a while actually thought COVID was going to be the catalyst. Of course, it wasn’t COVID reinforced my love of multifamily, because it’s the only asset class that got help. I mean, you know, if you own a retail center, or, you know, or an office building or, or self storage, or anything like that, you didn’t get any help. But we got hundreds of 1000s of dollars in rent relief money for our tenants in our C Class assets. And so, but I again, I’m going to stay away from C class right now I’m doing kind of a flight to quality just because, you know, people that can afford an A and B class aren’t going to be hurt as badly as you know, these people that are literally literally going paycheck to paycheck. And, you know, we’re already starting to see a little hiccup in our defaults, you know, tenant defaults, and some of our assets that have a C element to them that I purchased before I made this decision. But you know, it is what it is, it is what it is. And, you know, as long as if you’re sitting in the sidelines right now, and you know, you just got a W2 job, you know, you want to do more for your family if there was ever a time to pick a vehicle, meaning pickup, you know, strategy and get up to speed as fast as possible.
In fact, if you’re going to do multifamily, Can I mention my bootcamp real quick, please do multifamily if you’re going to do multifamily? I only do one in person live event a year just because they kill me. It’s three days, it’s going to be in Orlando, September 15. Through the 17th. It’s not a sales pitch. I talked about my coaching for like 30 minutes, but the rest of the time, it’s three full days of full on training the manuals two inches thick, okay, it’s drinking through a firehose, but you know, you’ll leave there ready to go and and I cover every aspect of the business soup to nuts, building a team finding deals, financing those deals, raising the money of need for those deals, syndication, joint venture, you know, due diligence, underwriting, property management, you know, everything is covered. And, and, and here’s the thing, if you use the code, Jeff, when you come, you can come for $197 200 bucks, 200 bucks to come for three days of training. And if you don’t love it, I don’t mean like it, I mean, freaking love it. I’ll give you our 200 bucks back. Okay. And I mean that so if you want want to check it out, you can go to rodslinks.com and the bootcamp sites at the top and use the code Jeff and you can come for 100 It’s a little more than that now and it’ll be 600 bucks ultimately, but you can come for $197 and I’ve never had a complaint that’s a lie. People complain about the food’s sucking or the room being too cold, but never about the content. Okay, and, and it is a blast I do I have three panels each day a panelist on billions of dollars in property answer questions. But we have a lot of fun. A lot of time spent on mindset and psychology. So people actually take action with what they learn there. And, and it’s yeah, it’s a love love of mine. So again, rods, links use the code, Jeff. Yeah, you bet.
Jeff Stephens
Thank you. That’s very, very generous. I appreciate Thank you. And I know our listeners do too. You know, so a few days ago, I was starting to just think about this interview. And I thought, you know, I’m gonna go on my social media, and I just made a little post I said, Hey, guys, I’m going to be interviewing rod on Friday. Is there anything you’d like me to ask him? And there were a few responses that I think the common denominator was? Should we be waiting? You know? Yeah, hold on, I
Rod
I get that question all the time. Should I wait to buy I wait to buy I’ve got loi is out on two deals. Right. Now, what is an LOI? It’s called a letter of intent. And, you know, in the commercial real estate space, if you’re buying a duplex, or a four Plex, you know, have a broker write the contract, no big deal. When you buy 100 units, you always involve an attorney, okay. Always, even me, and I can write contracts. I’ve done so many of them. 1000s of them, but you always involve an attorney. And of course, attorneys aren’t free.
So, you know, in my world, what you write is called a letter of intent. And it talks about all the deal points and, and the purchase price and any and closing dates and earnest money and so on and so forth. And you get agreement on that. And then the attorneys fight it out for the purchase and sale agreement, but then you can spend money if they agree on the bait, the main terms and but we’ve got ello eyes on a two deals right now screaming deals, deals are coming out of the woodwork now. And so it’s still not as as much as I expect. I think it’s still the people that kind of want to sell. It’s not the people that have to sell yet, but the people that have to sell is coming.
Here’s why it’s coming, Jeff, there is 1.6 trillion in commercial debt coming due by the end of next year. A trillion is a lot of money. Okay, half a half a trillion is multifamily. Okay. Now, here’s the problem for those people that have debt come and do they either have to sell or they have to refinance? Well, there’s been a 75% year over year decline in sales first quarter this year 75% Drop, okay. And I don’t know if you’ve been watching the interest rates, but it is very, very difficult to borrow money again. And, you know, if an interest rates, cap rates, track interest rates, and in my world cap rates, this is how you determine the value of a property, you divide that into the net income. And if the cap rate goes up, the value goes down. Well, so that is hurting people in their ability to refinance. But and and the, the debt service coverage ratio, because they look at a property’s ability to service the debt. Okay. It’s not like in residential, where they look at your personal income, they’re looking at the property’s ability to service the debt and, and so that has gone down.
But here’s the other real killer. I did a Facebook live on this, I had a dramatic title becoming bomb, because I think it is a bomb. It’s, it’s it’s interest rate caps, okay? Because Because people if they can’t sell and they have to refinance, they’re likely going to have to go with adjustable rate bridge debt, and a lot of people already have that Honorius debt. And here’s the problem, they have to pay for a rate cap. Now, what that means is you’re paying to ensure that the rate won’t go up more than a certain amount. I mean, you know, this, Jeff, I’m trying to educate some of the listeners that may not know, but let me tell you, let me give you an example of why this is. So such a big deal. And 2020 If you wanted a rate cap for $100 million loan 3%. So you’re buying a 3% rate caps not gonna go up more than 3% of the rate that you’re quoted for three years. Okay, that cost you $23,000. If you want that same rate cap today, 100,000,003% for one year, it’s going to cost you 2.3 million.
Jeff Stephens
Wow, that’s my Yes. And people will have that
Rod
kind of money. And so, you know, that’s why the train is headed towards a freakin brick wall. And we’re not even talking about Office. I’m just talking about multifamily for that in that regard. office right now office is 20% vacant around the country minimum. It could be more than that. Of course, it’s much more than than San Francisco, New York, but you average it together. It’s it’s more than 20%. I just heard that from a huge broker. And so, you know, and here’s, here’s the thing, I don’t know what the catalyst is going to be. It could be that office, but see that debt is all held by regional banks and smaller banks, okay. And when that debt goes south, what do you think’s going to happen to those banks, right? And so, if they fail, that could be the catalyst. So again, I’m not trying to scare you, I want you to have your eyes wide open, but pick a frickin vehicle. I don’t care if it’s multifamily if it’s something else, great. I’d love to buy businesses. Honestly, I think it’s gonna be great opportunity there. But you got to learn it right now. Learn how you’re going to do this, if it’s multifamily. I hope you come to my bootcamp. I promise you’ll be glad you came. There’ll be at least 1000 people there. That’s what we’re anticipating wrong. track for. And and it’s a lot of fun. But But, but don’t wait on the sidelines, don’t miss this opportunity because you’ve been trying to learn whatever it is you’re going to do to capitalize on what’s coming in the thick of it, it’s going to be too late. You need to get up to speed, you need to build relationships, you got to, you know, practice you’ve got to underwrite and just learn the business as best you can so that when the stuff pops up, you can move on it.
Jeff Stephens
Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I always, I always feel like when you allow yourself to get into that, I should wait a little longer mode. That’s a very slippery slope. Because you can kind of always find a reason there’s yourself into why you should.
Rod
Exactly exactly and and that’s the thing. There are always deals always deals. Like I said, I wrote to today I wrote to this week, great deals. But you know, am I being super conservative, unbelievably conservative, okay, no aggressive right now very, very conservative on my projections on our breakeven analysis, and all these things we do to stress test a deal very conservative, but their deals right now, people say should I wait to buy real estate, I say no, buy real estate and wait, right? You’ve heard that expression, I’m sure. And but you can buy in any market, just sometimes you have to be more careful than others. And right now is one of those times super careful. But I believe there are going to be exponential deals coming. And I really believe that now there’s money waiting in the wings for some of this stuff. But mostly larger, larger deals, I think, you know, if you play in the sweet spot of like, 20 to 50 units, not going to be as many players there, because a lot of them are getting getting, you know, the waters going out. And we’re gonna see who doesn’t have clothes on here soon. Okay. And so, you know, I’m shocked. There’s not more stuff on the market yet. But I think people are like holding out hoping the interest rate is going to come back down. I don’t see it. I mean, I think it’s going to go up a little more. And, you know, God, hell just have wills, we’ll have to see how it all shakes out. Man, I hope it’s not as bad as Oh, eight, nine, because that was a bloodbath. But you know, if it is it is and and here’s the other thing, you know, don’t fear that, you know, sometimes you have to innovate, you have to pivot and maybe you’re going to be in that place. And I had to like when COVID hit, I was scheduled to have 800 people in Orlando, and I’m like, holy cow, I mean, sold half those tickets, what are we going to do, I can’t afford to refund that money. And I pivoted, and I built a studio here in my house in my compound here in Florida. And now I’ve had, you know, I make I do better with these virtual events that I do on my live events. And, and I’ve had 1000s and 1000s of people attend my virtual events now here in the studio. And, and so if you’re in that place now, no, I know you’re on the West Coast. And a lot of people lost their jobs in the IT space, there’s been tons of layoffs. And you know, just recognize that you’ve got superpowers, you’ve got skill sets. And you may have to innovate, and it’ll be uncomfortable, but you’ve got this just go do it.
Jeff Stephens
Yeah. So these last few minutes, the economic stuff that’s going on and interest rates and whatnot, is a really great segue to what what I know that, you know, is one of our favorite topics here on this show with all our financing community. Yes, exactly. So I know that it’s played a role in your, in your business and your journey. And, you know, again, it’s the relevance of seller financing kind of changes over time, based on what’s happening. Oh, it’s very
Rod
relevant right now. It’s a it’s an incredible strategy. Because, you know, there are people that are selling assets that have very low interest rates on them, like like, 3%. Okay, I bought a 296 unit asset in San Antonio, a year ago, September and at interest rates 3.2%. This last asset, I bought Nashville’s 5.4%. Okay, but the you know, those assets that have these low interest rates require a lot more money out of pocket. But if you can get a seller to finance or you know, into some other creative structures, you can have the seller stay in the deal on these larger deals as well. And or you can have a seller, you know, there’s lots of different ways. But let me talk about what let me give you what I teach from stage about seller financing, because I talk about going direct to seller with marketing mailers. And I give all sorts of great strategies on how to go direct to seller. But what I like to tell people to do is to target people that have owned at least 20 years, if if this if the list is too small, then go to 10 years, but I tell them target people that have owned 20 years, and what will and then and you’re only mailing we’ll just talk about mailers for a second, if you’re only mailing, if you’re targeting people, let’s say 1010 units to 50 units in Tampa, which is a huge MSA meaning Metropolitan Statistical Area, big MSA like Phoenix, Denver, these big, big metropolitan areas, if you target people are going to 20 years, you’re only going to get a few 100 names. Okay? So it’s not like 1000s But here’s the thing, if they’ve owned 20 years, they’re likely retired, they’re also likely they’re likely not to have any more tax benefits. They’re fully depreciated. Okay? And so, when you go to one of these people, and you know, you approach them and say, hey, you know, Mr. Smith, you know, I’m gonna pay a million dollars for your property. And, you know, if you take that money, well, first of all, if you sell it and I get funding, new financing, you get paid out and you’re only going to be able to keep 60 or 70 cents on the dollar because Uncle Sam is going to take the rest so you’ll be able to keep six 700,000 and I’m and you’re going to put it in the bank now banks are paying a little more now, I found banks that’ll pay as high as four back in the day, you know, it was a 1%. But you could even say, you know, banks will pay a 2/3/4 percent. But and so here’s what your payment will be okay for on your six or 700,000, you work it out for him, this is important that you calculate what you know, and estimated payment based on how much they they’d net, because here’s the thing, if they’re retirees, they’re not going to take that money and put it into another high risk asset, they’re going to put it in the bank. So they’re very risk conscious.
Okay. So that’s why this strategy is very effective with a retiree, and you just tell them, you know, Mr. Smith, you know, if if you allow me, I’ll give you enough of a downpayment. So you know, I’m serious, but I’m gonna pay you 6/7/8 percent interest, you do the math, and the numbers still may be fabulous. Okay, I will tell you, when I started in real estate, I remember doing backflips when the interest rate hit 8%. When I started in 1978, it was 18%. Okay. And, and I remember just being I, when I, when I had deals at 7%. I was like, Are you kidding me? This is incredible. So please know, have some context about interest rates. And so you know, you tell them say, you know, Mr. Smith, Mr. Smith here, so, you know, I’ll pay you enough down payments, you know, I’m serious, and you’re only going to pay taxes on the amount you receive from me every year, and I’ll pay you a 6/7/8 percent interest, here’s the amount you’ll get from me. And it’ll likely be two or three times what they get in the bank. And so, you know, if you have that conversation with them, congruently, then you know, it’s a compelling thing, because most of the time, they just want cash flow anyway, when they get older. So I’m specifically talking about retirees here.
The other thing I want to tell you is, if you’re dealing with retirees, seller, bonding is huge, okay, at that age, people are more interested in the relationship than they are in the finances. And so you focus on making friends first not to take advantage of them, I’ll hunt you down, but to create a win win situation right to to, and you bond with them. And I will tell you, I have bonded with elderly sellers, where I didn’t pay anything down, they just wanted the payment is a large deal too. And I have bonded with sellers, where I didn’t make a payment for a year, because the property was trashed, I think it was a five unit. And I’m like, you know, whatever their name was, I don’t remember anymore, you know, you know, the property is trashed, I need to put money back into it as I rent units. And, and I’ll pay you as quickly as I’ve done, that was the truth. And I bonded with them, and I make a payment for a year. So that’s what’s possible seller bonding, super important with retirees, but seller financing is extraordinary.
And there’s so many different ways to structure deals, you know, you could go out and find land that’s zoned for new construction zone for like a multi units and, and have the seller participate in the deal. And, you know, split it with them and, you know, have very little out of pocket and go get financing and build some build some units, it’s very common business model, you know, have seller stay in a deal for to minimize the amount of equity that needs to be, you know, raised for a deal, the amount of money you’ve got to raise from investors. So, you know, but seller financing is fantastic, because obviously, they’re not checking your credit, well, they may check your credit on a larger deal to see that you’re for real, but But you know, it doesn’t show up on your credit. And you can negotiate any kind of terms you want. That’s the beautiful thing about it. So I love seller financing. I haven’t done it in quite a while I did help an operator, big operator, buy 500 units with seller financing. I coached him on that. It’s been a while. But
Jeff Stephens
yeah, yeah. Well, it’s such a nice little closing of the loop back to the topic we had a little bit ago about utilizing your strengths and if your strengths are in the category of human relations and connection, the seller bonding that you were talking about in that process. That’s a huge part of what we tend to talk about in this community. And I just like I couldn’t agree more. It’s a great use of those skills.
Rod
But the awesome yeah, let me give you one unique negotiation strategy that I learned from a gentleman named Ron Legrand, he’s a long a tooth guy that I learned from Gosh, decades ago. In fact, when I started learning from him, I already had 1000 houses and you know, he’d bring me up and stuff like that, but he taught me this and he said, you know, go to a seller and say, you know if I can pay all cash and close very quickly, what’s the least you take? And then regardless of the answer when they say the answer you go is that the best you can do? Even if you want to do backflips when you hear the price they quoted you say and that has made me millions of dollars. I’m not exaggerating millions millions, you always just go is that the best you can do and and you know and it’s buy low sell high I mean people you know, I get hate or sometimes when I post that that strategy, but you know that’s that’s the way the world is you buy low sell high as best you can. But yeah, I love seller financing for sure.
Jeff Stephens
Yeah, absolutely. Well, you got your your bootcamp coming up in September. And with that, that code, rods links user
Rod
code, Jeff Yep, go jobs links. Yep.
Jeff Stephens
Okay, thank you for that. That’s very, very generous. Just generous for you to be here and share your expertise, and vast appreciate
Rod
that our
Jeff Stephens
audience so thank you so much.
Rod
I appreciate that. No, no problem. Yeah, it’s almost nine o’clock here and I have a supermodel beautiful wife, I’m not exaggerating, and she’s more beautiful on the inside than the outside. And so, you know, I think that shows you how passionate it is about what I do. I absolutely love what I do.
Fact, let me let me leave you with one last thought because I think it’ll round this thing out really nicely. So, you know, when I moved when I lived in Denver, I always knew I wanted to live on the beach. And this hubs, no beach in Denver, but I would visualize, you know, the palm trees and the sand and the surf for 20 years I visualized it. And 20 years in I built this incredible $8 million 10,000 square foot house on the beach, and which was unthinkable when I was 18. But I made it happen, but there’s a message in there. So two months after I moved into this incredible home, I owned the beach on one side and I had my boats on the backside it was like called a Gulf to Bay. It was a slice through an island. And you know, just to describe this place at a giant waterfall from the second floor balcony into the pool, you had to walk through the waterfall to get in the pool pools and magazines. You know, I had speak spiral staircase up through the middle of the house wine cellar elevator on the second floor I had aquariums built around the spiral staircase custom may cost me almost 200 grand. So this gives you an idea of the house.
So two months after I moved in, I’m floating in the pool at night is changing colors. It’s got fiber optic lighting, and I’m looking up at this testament to my ego, which is really what it was it was to prove the world I was good enough. And it’s embarrassing to admit that sometimes but you know, I’m looking up at this thing. And I’d worked for it for 20 years. And this was two months after I moved in. And I got depressed. And I don’t mean a little depressed. I mean I was really depressed. I’m like, What the hell How could I be depressed I’ve just achieved success like times 10,000 I beautiful family inside sleeping at all the toys, the mazaraki and the Mercedes and the boats and the jet skis and all the stuff and what had happened, which is what I want to share as a final note with your audience here, Jeff is you know, it’s never about the goals you need the goals to create burning desire, you’ve got to have that to push through the fear and the limiting beliefs and get uncomfortable but you know, like they say the happiest days of a boat owner’s wife the day they buy the boat and the day they sell the boat you need the goals to to get you off your butt to go make it happen. But it’s about happiness comes from progress and growth and I didn’t know I was going to continue to grow after that.
So that was one piece but the bigger piece was I had been totally focused on me you know rod rod rod show the world I’m good enough show the world I matter right and that’s the year I met Tony Robbins and went saw him live and highly encourage you to see him if you have an opportunity. But I saw that he fed families for the holidays. And I’m like what a concept, you know, do something for someone else. I’m embarrassed to say I had to be 40 to get that memo. But I called my brother who I was going to go visit for Thanksgiving in Denver and I said bro, let’s feed five families. And so he called his church got five families who really needed help. And we bought frozen turkeys and food and toys for the kids and the third family changed my life. Jeff we go up to this house. There’s this woman in this one bedroom with five kids and it was a crappy one bedroom at that since Hispanic woman she comes out she starts crying when she sees all the stuff on the porch. Or kids come out to the older one start crying. I start crying and I’m hooked. And I’m blessed to say in the last 23 years we have fed over 140,000 children here in Sarasota and Bradenton. We have done 10s of 1000s of backpacks filled with school supplies to local kids. We’re doing fact we’re doing 1500 backpacks on August 4 coming up, you know kids that don’t have the basic supplies for school we’ve done 10s of 1000s that teddy bears for local police departments for officers to keep in their vehicles. If they encounter a child that’s been traumatized, they can comfort the child.
Now I’m not saying this to brag, but but I know that you’ve got listeners that are listening to your show, they’ve got blood dripping from their teeth, they want this success so bad. They want to build that passive income. And I’m here to tell you guys we’ve been taught to achieve to be happy. Like we should not be happy until we reach some level of achievement. I’m going to tell you if you give back. I know it’s a play on words, but it’s an important one. Do you give back you’re happily achieving? And I’m going to tell you that you know it Tony Robbins calls it the science of achievement versus the art of fulfillment, the achievements of science if you all are multifamily come to my frickin bootcamp I’ll give you the map you in the blueprint you just gotta go do it. It’s a science, but a cheat but fulfillment is an art Okay? Find something that juices you for me it’s kids Maybe for you it’s animals or the environment or the elderly and give back right now even if you don’t say to yourself yeah, you had money that’s why you’re able to do it. No, even if you don’t have money if you just have your time give your time. Why because the money will come faster. Okay, now that you don’t do it for that reason, but that’s just the way God works. That’s the way the universe works. So give back right now you will thank me and you will be happily achieving you’ll not just be successful, you’ll be fulfilled.
Jeff Stephens
Beautiful, you know, as I think you know, we call this community here of mine, the thoughtful real estate entrepreneur community and I think that that make that very, very thoughtful way to wrap this up and to put a bow on that. And I need that reminder myself a lot. And I get little glimpses of it and then I let it slip away. And so thank you for that. Because that’s that’s a little gift for me to remember as well now, thank
Rod
you for letting me ramble. I’m glad you allowed me to add that last little piece because it’s important.
Jeff Stephens
I’m very grateful for it and grateful for all of it. Thank you so much for being here to share your expertise with us, Rob.
Rod
I appreciate it. Jeff was great to meet you. I hope I meet you in person one day.
Jeff Stephens
I hope so too. I hope so too. Thank you. Well, there you have it. My interview with Rod Cleef kind of a legend in the multifamily real estate investing space and one of the top educators in that space, as well. Rod clearly really knows what he’s talking about and is a passionate advocate for entrepreneurship and mindset. I love some of the thoughts that he had around mindset and some of that stuff at the very end about giving really moved me as well. And I hope it did for you too.
That is it for today’s episode of Racking Up Rentals. Again, show notes for today’s episode are at www.thoughtfulre.com/e188. Please do us a big favor by hitting that subscribe button would be so appreciated. And if you would rate and review this show just real quickly, doesn’t have to be long or eloquent. Just a rating there and a couple words would be super, super helpful and very appreciated.
Did you know that we have a Facebook group for Thoughtful Real Estate Entrepreneurs too? We do and you should be a part of it. It’s called Rental Portfolio Wealth Builders and we would love to have you join us there. Just go to group.thoughtfulre.com and you will be taken right to that page we can hit the Join button. If you liked this episode, please take a screenshot of that and post it to Instagram and tag us; we are @thoughtfulrealestate. I will see you in the next episode. Until then, this is Jeff from the Thoughtful Real Estate Entrepreneur signing off.
Thanks for listening to Racking Up Rentals where we build long term wealth by being win-win dealmakers. Remember: solve the person to unlock the deal and solve the financing to unlock the profits.
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